Joe Swanberg is a writer, director and actor who sometimes acts in other filmmakers’ movies. While that’s not entirely uncommon, it got me thinking: how does being a cast member for a director with a very different style affect a director’s own approach to making movies? Has Joe Swanberg changed as a result of acting in The Sacrament, particularly since his character – a Vice magazine documentarian filming a cult compound that’s destined for horror and tragedy – ends up filming a lot of The Sacrament personally?
That was the jumping off point for my interview with Joe Swanberg, and fortunately he had a lot to say about the ongoing and unexpected aspects of artistic collaboration. We also discussed the kinds of horror movies he wants to make himself (and thinks he’s already making, in an roundabout way), and we spitball ideas for the types of holiday movies he might want to direct now that he’s got a Christmas movie, Happy Christmas, out of the way. (It’s coming to theaters on June 26, The Sacrament is on VOD and in select theaters now.)
Related: The Sacrament Review: Cut of Eventuality
CraveOnline: I think the question I have to ask is… you play the cameraman, did you do all the camerawork?
Joe Swanberg: I did some of the camerawork, yeah. Ti and I traded off because there’s a lot of sequences in the movie where the camera flips around and I had to do it. And there are other sequences where Ti wanted something specific and just operated himself. But yeah, I was pretty involved in that and it was fun. It was a different kind of challenge as an actor to also be doing operating.
It’s interesting, because as a director you’re behind the camera a lot and interacting with the talent, but now that’s part of this tale.
Yeah, definitely. It’s because the way the movie’s told, the camera’s point of view is really crucial. Unlike a movie with coverage where you’re kind of getting the god’s eye view. That camera my character is holding is basically how the audience is going to experience this thing from beginning to end.
It struck me that although it is docu-mockumentary, whatever you want to call it…
Yeah…
It seemed very controlled.
Yeah, Ti’s that kind of filmmaker. It’s one of his big strengths. He just has a really strong vision and is a very visual filmmaker, so yeah, it’s meant to feel like a documentary but it’s highly scripted and highly choreographed.
Was that natural for you? Or is that a different style from your own?
It’s definitely different from how I work, but how I work has been changing over the years. So it’s a little closer to how I’ve been working lately, but you know, I’ve always… well, I shouldn’t say “always.” But for the most part I’ve let the camera follow the actors and not the other way around. You know what I mean. Rather than make actors hit marks and have to be doing technical acting I’ve sort of wanted the actors to be free to just inhabit a space and let the camera move around them. But it’s one of the nice things about getting to act in other people’s movies is having the chance to be on different kinds of sets and work with different kinds of directors.
Would that be natural for you now, to try to tell the story more with the camera and make the actors do your bidding?
I don’t know. I mean it wouldn’t… I don’t know. I’m asking, because I’m usually using improvisation, I’m asking the actors to bring a lot, and so to ask them to bring a lot and then also to hit a bunch of marks and be reined in more on that technical side is a different thing to ask of them. So I think the flexibility of movement is a pretty crucial part of the whole equation, but I will say that I’ve been working with a cinematographer named Ben Richardson over the last couple of projects and he and I are figuring out how to still give the actors that freedom but also create some deliberate feelings with the camera. So there may be, I think I’m getting closer to being able to call myself more of a visual filmmaker while also not compromising that kind of acting style.
Tell me about some of the people who influenced you as a filmmaker. Are they all like John Cassavetes, like “fuck continuity,” or are there people who are more visually striking who do inspire you?
I mean, the Coen Bros. were a big inspiration and they’re definitely very technical and visual, but it was also John Waters and John Sayles and Spike Lee, Jim Jarmusch. You know, a lot of the 70s and 80s American filmmakers. And then there’s the French, Eric Rohmer and Maurice Pialat, Jean Eustache, a lot of the… not necessarily the New Wave filmmakers, but a lot of the 60s and 70s French filmmakers.
The post-New Wave.
Yeah, and just those personal filmmakers. I think I’ve always been drawn to people who tell autobiographical stories. You know, I just think Paul Mazursky’s a big influence, Elaine May is a big influence. They’re not… I don’t know, there’s something about that mode of personal, autobiographical filmmaker that doesn’t necessarily line up with hyper technical kind of camerawork and crazy sound design and stuff like that. That kind of naturalism, for me, it’s all of it.
Ti’s work tends to be very character oriented, but it’s also very premise-oriented.
Yeah.
Does that sort of thing appeal to you? Do you always start with characters, or do you ever have a plot point and work it out it with the actors?
I almost always start with characters. I have to get hooked into a person. Or sometimes I start with actors before I even have characters. You know, there are people I want to work with and then we figure out who that character is. Yeah, I don’t think I’ve ever been compelled to tell a story based on plot points or anything like that.
Would that keep you away from doing a genre film like The Sacrament?
I don’t think so. It would just probably have to come to me in a written form, you know?
Are you open to that?
I definitely am, yeah. I like horror films and would like to make more of them. I mean I have a few ideas I would call “horror ideas,” but they’re still rooted in character. They’re still originating from a place of the people first, you know. They’re not heavily crafted in terms of the “things” that happen.
Would that be more like a Rosemary’s Baby kind of thing, where it’s all about the anxiety of relationships?
Probably, yeah. Probably. I mean a lot of my movies I think are horror movies anyway. The horror of communication or dating or trying to have sex with somebody.
That’s horrifying. I hate having sex with somebody.
Yeah, yeah. Existing in our modern world is horrific already, so.
So going back to something like The Sacrament, this movie is kind of interesting because even though it takes place in the present day it’s about an anxiety we had in the 70s and 80s in particular.
Yeah.
Related: Director Ti West on The Sacrament
Do you remember any of that in particular very strongly?
I don’t remember it but I do know, I’ve read a lot and watched a lot about Jonestown, so you know, I was – even before Ti called me about this movie – I was really aware of that, and I’d spent a lot of time thinking about that. It feels… I’ve been listened today to Ti talk to people about the film, and one of things that he was saying was history repeats itself and these things are cyclical, and I do think that there’s a wealth discrepancy that we’re finding happening around the world that probably will lead to more of a communal living situation being desirable to people, and a feeling of being beaten down by the system and wanting to sort of pool your resources together and create your own universe to live in. So the timing of this movie may be pretty right on in terms of what the Father character is talking about in here, kind of feeling hopeless and feeling like you don’t have a place in culture and wanting to then carve out your own space.
Even you and A.J. in this movie, you have dialogue about how, at least initially, you understand the appeal.
For sure. I mean that was one of the most exciting things that Ti said to me when we started talking about the movie, was that these guys get down there and it’s not so bad. It seems kind of idyllic and although I think both these characters agree that it’s not for them, necessarily, they totally can see why the people who live down there are into it.
There was a period of time in the movie where I was thinking, “Is this even going to be a horror movie?”
Yeah, I know. They’re just going to decide to stay. [Laughs.] That sounds like a movie I would want to make. “Yeah, this isn’t bad actually. That girl’s kind of cute, and I sort of have been meaning to get back into playing basketball. Let’s just like, let’s just stay here for a couple months.” [Laughs.]
That’s the sort of thing we were talking about. When you’re talking about developing a story, it could just be about finding people in a situation. It doesn’t have to be a plot point that kicks everything off.
Yeah.
You have a movie that’s set at Christmastime, for example. Did that have to be set at Christmastime or did that just make it more interesting?
We were shooting it around Christmastime and so it definitely made it more practical. Yeah, it was… the holidays occupy a specific place for us, culturally, and I think that they add a lot of pressure to family situations. There’s something about the holidays where you feel like everything’s supposed to be meaningful, and for me that was a fun time to set the movie because it kind of ups the ante a little bit.
We tend to have a lot of Christmas movies, a handful of Halloween and Thanksgiving movies. Do you feel that way about, I don’t know, Arbor Day? Are there other holidays where we could exploit that? I wonder.
Definitely. I mean… Well didn’t Jason Reitman just make Labor Day?
He did…
I haven’t seen it. What’s Labor Day like? [Laughs.]
I’ve heard nothing but terrible things. But I’m thinking about something like St. Patrick’s Day, where everyone’s like, “We’ve got to go drinking!” and I am like, “I would prefer not to.”
Sure.
“And also that’s not what St. Patrick’s Day is about. You didn’t really do your research on that.”
Right.
I don’t know.
Well I will put some thought into this and see if I can come up with a good St. Patrick’s Day drinking movie.
You could do your own Decalogue of holiday movies.
The Forgotten Holidays?
Talk Like a Pirate Day, a Joe Swanberg Joint.
Right. Dress Backwards Day.
Is that a real one?
I don’t know. Mother’s Day and Father’s Day. That would be interesting.
It’s weird for me. My father died a year ago, and now what do I do?
Yeah, right? Are you a dad?
Not yet. Probably never, but we’ll find out. Are you a dad?
I am. I have a three-year-old.
What’s that like, being the subject of a Father’s Day now?
It’s interesting. I still feel like Father’s Day is more about my dad than me. It’s not a holiday that I have a ton of ownership over, but you know, it’s a nice excuse to sleep in and get a little bit of extra attention.
You’ll start collecting neckties very soon.
Yeah.
William Bibbiani is the editor of CraveOnline’s Film Channel and the host of The B-Movies Podcast and The Blue Movies Podcast. Follow him on Twitter at @WilliamBibbiani.
